James J. Dillon. The manager. The wrestler. The man.

Neither the lap of luxury nor the throws of poverty would aptly describe the origin of the man we know and love (or hate) as James J Dillon.

Born on June 26, 1942, in Trenton, New Jersey, James' youth would best be described as average. He came from a middle class family. He had a paper route and also washed dishes in a neighborhood restaurant. In school Jim participated in both baseball and swimming and, by his own words, was an average athlete. “I wasn’t the best player or the worst," Recalls JJ. "I also was involved in judo for 3 or 4 years. I enjoyed the fitness aspect of it and it served me well later in that I learned how to fall and how to protect myself when taking a fall."

Upon Graduation from high school, he attended Albright College in Redding, PA, where he earned a degree in sociology.

Dillion said, “As crazy as it may sound, I went to college with the goal in mind of getting into professional wrestling. I had met an old-timer, the original ZEBRA KID, George Bolus. He spent a lot of time in Europe and Japan and he would write to me. We became kind of pen pals. He told me that if this was what I really wanted to do that I should get an education first. Once you have that under your belt, you always have something to fall back on. He told me, 'when you go to college, join the wrestling team and learn the fundamentals of amateur wrestling. It will serve you well later on.' So as crazy as it sounds, based on his advice, I went to college and joined the wrestling team. I wanted to get a degree in something I was at least remotely interested in, but beyond that I had no career goals.”

K-W: So when did the wrestling bug first bite?

JJ: The bug first bit when I attended my first live event when I was about 14. I was a big fan of the Brooklyn Dodgers. When Walter Omalley moved the Dodgers to the west coast, I became very disenchanted with baseball. Back then, you didn’t get TV feeds from the other side of the country, so all you could find were scores in the newspaper. Many times, the score would be only a partial score based on the time the paper went to press. I totally lost interest in baseball. In flipping the channels I discovered wrestling from the Capital Arena. The host was Ray Morgan. I started watching religiously. One night they announced an upcoming card at the Armory in Trenton, NJ and I told my parents that I really really really wanted to go. My mother took me to that first show. The main event was Argentina Rocca vs. Karl Von Hess. I walked into the Armory and saw this cast of characters and felt the level of excitement and the excitement of the crowd, and being there in person and it just grabbed me. Understand this was maybe 1956-1957, and to see a guy with bleached blonde hair like Dr. Jerry Graham, or a shaved head like Skull Murphy, or war paint and feathers like Chief Big Heart was pretty bizarre.

Nowadays you wouldn't look twice at these guys, but back then well I guess that was also part of the mystique for me

K-W: So how did you get started in the pro ring?

JJ: There was a ref named LOU SUPER who had a gym in northeast Philadelphia. I believe he trained the Philly police officers in self defense. Anyway he had a few wrestler wannabes who trained there. I used to take the train to Philly and take the street car up to his gym. There was a ring -- not what you would think of as a ring, but it was what we trained in. There were four ring posts held up with sandbags and the ropes strung between them. There was no tension on the ropes so you couldn’t use them. They were just a boundary of sorts. The mats were right on the floor. And that's what we trained in. I met a young Puerto Rican kid named Juan Rodriguez, from Vineland, NJ. We trained together a little and one day he told me that the WORLD WIDE WRESTLING FEDERATION was holding an outdoor show at the Vineland Speedway. He told me that Vineland had a large Latin population during the summer months and the local promoter, Bill Noko, wanted a local Puerto Rican on the card. I remember the main event was Hans Schmidt vs. Miguel Perez. Juan said he wanted me to work with him. I was thrilled. The match took place on July 11, 1962. I was such a big fan of Johnny Valentine at the time that I called myself Jim Valance. We had a rematch about a month later. I believe I was paid $50.00 for the first match and $100.00 for the second so I regard those as my first professional matches. I didn't step back into the ring again, as a wrestler, until 1968 when The Sheik gave me a chance.

K-W: Okay, so were you involved in the business in any other way during that gap from 1962 to 1968?

JJ: I started refereeing, I believe, in 1963. I used to go down to the old NBC Studios in Philly where they taped the matches. The guy who set up the ring was from Redding and I would ride down with him. My first on-camera roll was a corner second. I would take the guys jackets from them when they got into the ring. My frat buddies would see me on TV every Saturday when the show aired and that was kind of a big deal. One day there was a huge blizzard and none of the commission referees showed up. Someone asked me if I knew how to ref and of course I said, "SURE!" The only instruction they gave me was to “keep my ass out of the camera." They said, "Work the three sides of the ring, but we don’t want you walking across in front of the camera." I must have done such a good job that they told me they wanted to get me in the commission. One night Willie Gilzenburg, the New Jersey promoter, saw me working and asked Vince (Sr.) about me. Vince told him I was from Jersey and Willie got me into the New Jersey Athletic Commission so I could ref for him as well. The Athletic Commissions were very political and they rotated their refs. I didn’t always get to work but I always showed up at the buildings to do whatever I could to help out. Vince and the boys loved having me ref. Most of the refs were not wrestling fans and didn’t really “work” the matches. The boys would have to “work” around them. So when I reffed they were happy because I understood what I needed to do and wanted to make everyone look good. I remember one night at the old Philly Arena Arnold Skaaland came over and shook my hand. He palmed me a 20 and said “even though you didn’t ref tonight, Vince wants you to have this.” I loved being in the ring but after a while I felt like being a ref was as far as it was gonna get.

K-W: So, you have graduated college and are doing some part time reffing. What else is going on in your life at that time?

JJ: Well, I got married a month after I graduated. I sold life insurance for a while, then taught school for a year and then worked my way into a management position with a trucking company. In 1966 my daughter was born and I felt like I needed to be responsible and pretty much thought my dreams of wrestling were gonna just stay dreams.

K-W: So, when did all that change? And how?

JJ: I met The Sheik one night. I was telling him my dream of wrestling and he told me to come to Detroit. I remember sitting in that New Jersey dressing room and wondering aloud if he meant as a ref and he told me, “You want to wrestle, so come wrestle for me.” That was in 1968. A few weeks later I had what I consider my first professional match. It was on Deccember 6, 1968. It was a tag match with myself and Ron Sanders against the HELL'S ANGELS. It was for Daton TV. I remember the building was like an old garage with the ring in the center and maybe two rows of chairs. The guy doing the announcing was Ernie Roth, who later became the GRAND WIZARD. The following day I worked Pittsburgh TV in my first singles match. It was against KILLER KOWALSKI. I thought I was gonna die! He never stopped moving. The following day I worked TV in Michigan, where The Sheik taped his matches. It was almost a year later when I again was able to take some time from my “real job” and I called The Sheik again. He booked me for a whole week. I worked all around his territory for a full week. The trucking company eventually transferred me to Warren, Ohio which wasn't too far from Pittsburgh. I eventually was able to get in contact with Bruno Sammartino, whose matches I had refed many times. Bruno gave me a job working virtually every weekend in the Pittsburgh area. I would call The Sheik and he would bring me in when he could, maybe every six or seven weeks. My parents had moved to Detroit so I would work for Bruno on Friday night. Jump in the car, drive to Detroit work Sheik's TV and a match on COBO HALL. Plus I got to visit my parents and had a place to stay.

This went on for about a year, then I met a guy named Jim Grabmeier. He was a local boy who spent the winters working around Pittsburgh and Ohio, and then in the warmer months he went down to the Carolinas to work for Jim Crockett. Jim took my pictures and talked me up to George Becker, Crockett's booker. He called me one night and said, “If you are interested, I have a starting date for you.” Interested, of course I was interested!

I gave notice at my job at the trucking company, packed everything I owned into my car and headed south.

K-W: So, up to this point you had been working full time at the trucking co. and were wrestling on the weekends? And you left your job and headed to Charlotte to wrestle full time?

JJ: Exactly! I had never been south of Virginia before and I had no idea what was gonna happen, but I had a chance to live my dream and I was gonna go for it!

K-W: Do you remember your first match for Crockett?

JJ: It took place on May 3, 1971, at the Charlotte park center and it was against GENE ANDERSON.

K-W: Tell us a little about your run in Charlotte.

JJ: I was there for just about 2 years. I worked mostly as a mid card baby face. I was paired off with Les Thatcher and we worked as a tag team for several months. I don’t believe I held any titles while I was there.

K-W: Any real high points to your run for Crockett?

JJ: I think the high point of that run was a world title match against DORY FUNK, JR. Dory was in for a week defending the title. At that time the number 1 babyface chasing him was Johnny Weaver. Because of the close proximity of Richmond to Norfolk, the office didn’t want to have the same Dory vs. Johnny in both towns. Johnny came up with this idea and had me work a TV match against the champ. Of course I put him over but the match lasted almost the full time limit. After the match I did an interview in which I said that I had been so intimidated stepping in the ring with the world champion, and that after wrestling him for almost 10 minutes I was no longer intimidated. He was great but he was just a man and if I could have another chance maybe 2 out of 3 falls, well, just maybe I might be able to beat him. So the match was made and in spite of a badly injured ankle, Dory carried me to a pretty respectable match.

K-W: How did you end up in the Maritimes?

JJ: Leo Burke and Bobby Kay both worked in the Carolinas during the winter months and I became friendly with them. Leo invited me to come up to Nova Scotia for the summer. The plan was to bring me and Fred Sweetan in and make us the tag champions. THE BEAST was the top babyface and the NORTH AMERICAN CHAMPION. Every year the formula was to bring in a monster heel like the STOMPER or KILLER KARL KRUPP to first destroy Bobby and Rudy Kay and then Leo Burke and finally work a title program with THE BEAST. STAN STASIAK was booked for that summer and shortly before the season was to start he got a call from Vince to go to New York. I came up with an idea that I proposed to Leo. Let me come in as a loud mouth cocky chicken shit heel. Let me pull some kind of scam and underhandedly steal the belt from The Beast. Leo and his brothers decided to go with it. Being from New Jersey, as the original NATURE BOY BUDDY ROGERS was, I was dubbed NATURE BOY DILLON. I started smoking cigars and doing everything I could to come across as totally arrogant. The program was a total success and I won the NORTH AMERICAN title, my first major title.

K-W: And after the summer ended there?

JJ: Well, DORY FUNK had invited me to come to Amarillo, so in November of '73 I headed to Texas. My first match was against Les Thornton. While I was there I held the WESTERN STATES HEAVYWEIGHT title. The FUNKS had very strong ties to Japan and in January of '74 they booked me on my first tour of Japan. I had achieved one of my dreams to work in Japan. When I returned from Japan, I stayed in Amarillo for several months and then headed to Florida. My first night was a Tuesday, the night before the plane crash that took Bobby Shane's life. I stayed in Florida for a while and held the Florida tag titles with ROGER KIRBY. Florida was a great learning experience. I got to work with one of the greatest minds ever in wrestling, EDDIE GRAHAM. EDDIE had a way of creating the most complicated finishes where everyone had a part, and step after step took place until the final distraction of the ref while the heel or manager did his dirty work. It could be so detailed sometimes that we used have to remind each other what was next. It made things so believable to the fans. Nothing obvious like the manager holding the ref while something happens behind his back. Just a series of events leading up to that brief distraction that brings about the end. Eddie was a genius.

K-W: How and when did your managerial career begin?

JJ: I got a call from THE STOMPER Archie Goldie. He was starting in Dallas and needed a manager. He said he thought I would make a great manager since I was such a great interview. So I headed to Texas. RED BASTIEN was the booker and decided that if I was going to be a manager, we had to create more of a snobbish superior attitude, so JIM became JAMES, and to add a little extra class a middle initial was added. Thus the birth of JAMES J. DILLON. We worked on top for a while, and Archie being Archie just up and left. RED put me with LONNIE MAYNE next. After that I headed to Atlanta to work again with STOMPER and later ABDULLAH THE BUTCHER. ABBY and I traveled to Japan and then had a run in Amarillo. For the next couple of years I traveled back and forth between Amarillo, Japan and New Zealand.

K-W: Kurt Nielsen from California wanted to ask about your run managing BRUTE BRENARD and OX BAKER in New Zealand.

JJ: Actually I spent close to year between Australia and New Zealand. When I was first there, I worked with BRUTE. It was near the end of his career. LARRY O’DAY and RON MILLER were the owners of the company in Australia and they had a very different approach to running things than say a Jim Barnett. At that time business in the U.S. was very good, so it was hard to get name talent to travel half way around the world. So guys like BRUTE and OX BAKER, who was also near the end of his career, found themselves working down there. I also managed WALDO VON ERICH. It was a less-than-perfect situation. RON MILLER was the Austrailasian Heavyweight champ and never dropped the title. It was Larry O’Day’s fear that if they put the strap on one of the Americans, and he became disgruntled with conditions and left, they were screwed. In many ways our hands were tied. No marquee talent to use to draw and strict TV censorship of violence were the prime problems. Actually during my return to New Zealand I was booked as a wrestler.

K-W: After New Zealand?

JJ: I worked in Germany for about a month as COWBOY JIM DILLON. Then headed to Kansas City to book for Bob Geigel for about 8 months, then back to Florida.

K-W: Lets talk about your run in Florida. in the early '80s. Any funny stories? You were working with a wild bunch of guys: Kevin Sullivan, Ron Bass, Angelo Mosca etc.

JJ: Angelo and Sullivan were both great ribbers. Both liked a good joke and always got even when they were the butt of a joke. One night at the Ft. Homer Hesterly Armory, Kevin was nodding off in the locker room. Angelo slid a book of matches under his foot and lit it. It took a few seconds and then the matches ignited and Sullivan jumped up with a major hot foot. He kept screaming “I'll get you son of a bitch! I'll get you!!” The following week in the same building, Kevin got his revenge. Angelo was a sharp dresser -- always wore expensive clothes and nice Italian leather shoes. After his match, Angelo was in the shower, and Kevin took his shoes and placed them in the middle of the locker room floor and poured a whole can of lighter fluid into the shoes. Then threw a match on them. By the time Angelo came out of the shower, there were flames shooting about four feet in the air and Kevin was dancing around screaming, “I told you I would get you, you son of a bitch!” It was a hilarious scene.

K-W: Your booking there was interesting. The saga, the saddle, going to Dusty’s ranch?

JJ: I wanted to come up with something different. You can only listen to a heel rant and rave about what he's gonna do to your favorite baby face so many times. So, I went to the library and started getting books on the old west and came up with this idea that Dusty and BLACKJACK were actually old west outlaws reincarnated. We filmed this vignettes where I brought proof to the fans that they were actually the James brothers or some other old west bad guys. I showed pictures of Billy The Kid and Jesse James and tried to make the people see the resemblance to Dusty and Blackjack. We did these vignettes for several weeks building the story until I finally decided to go to Dusty’s ranch and confront them. I hired a limo and a cameraman to cover the whole thing. When I arrived Dusty and Blackjack rode up on horseback and started shooting at me. It went over real well with the fans. It was something new and different. At first Eddie Graham wasn't too sure about it. The segments ran longer than your traditional promo and there was no ranting and raving. No action. This concerned Eddie as it was a departure from his style of booking. He was thrilled with the final segment though. Lots of action Dusty and Blackjack shooting at me. Me crawling in the dirt fleeing for my life. Another great program we did was centered around the Weasel suit. It was between JIMMY GARVIN and RUFUS R. JONES. The payoff at the house shows was for me to get knocked out and the babyfaces to put me in the suit. Then when I woke up and the fans were laughing, I would walk around kind of in a daze to all four sides of the ring so everyone got a look. Then, as my head cleared, I would realize why they were laughing and throw a fit and run out of the ring. One night Rufus “accidentally” put the suit on me backwards so when I stood up I had this long black “tail” hanging from the front of my crotch. That brought an even bigger crowd reaction than normal.

K-W: You said when you went to Japan you achieved one of your dreams in the ring. What were your ultimate dreams or goals?

JJ: There were three things that in my mind meant you made it in wrestling. Working in Japan, working in Australia, and working MADISON SQUARE GARDEN. There are bigger and more impressive buildings but if you work the GARDEN, you have made it. The first two were covered in the '70s but it took a favor from EDDIE GRAHAM to make the final dream come true. In 1984, as my run in Florida was nearing its end, I confided to EDDIE that it had always been my dream to work MSG. Being the good friend Eddie was and having the power he had, it only took one phone call. He called Vince, Sr., who remembered me from years back, and that was that. I wrestled TITO SANTANA for the Intercontinental title in the Garden on April 23, 1984. I had done it all!

K-W: Rob Stephen of Halifax, Nova Scotia wanted to know about your 1984 run in the Maritimes.

JJ: EDDIE GRAHAM was kind enough to provide me with tapes to help launch the promotion. It was my opportunity for ownership. And all I was doing was providing a tape library to get things started and running the operation. The backers really had no knowledge of the business. Our downfall was that we had no real TV coverage. Cable was at its infancy at that time and we ended up on a local cable channel. There were promises that we would be on the local network, but that never materialized. After about three months, I realized we were doomed to failure.

K-W: How did you end up in the NWA?

JJ: I got a call from Dusty. He was leaving Florida and was headed to Charlotte -- he told me to come along. He would take care of things with Jimmy Crockett. Just get to Charlotte. That was the beginning of a fantastic five year run.

K-W: Why were you put with BUDDY LANDELL? He was a great talker and really didn't seem to need a manager.

JJ: I was supposed to keep BUDDY focused. His character was so wrapped up in himself that I was the one who had to keep him in line. We did these video packages where I am trying to revue tapes of opponents with Buddy and all he is doing is brushing his hair and looking at himself in the mirror, totally ignoring what I am trying to show him. The battle of the "Nature Boys" could have been a great program if Buddy had been able to keep his mind on business. Needless to say he made some bad choices and it ended prematurely.

K-W: The origin and exploits of the HORSEMEN have been covered time and again so only one HORSEMEN related question. It comes from Jim Saucy. What was your favorite combination of the group?

JJ: Most would say the original four. Ole was great and didn't fit the HORSEMEN image so it was easy to “kick him out,” thus creating an opponent for us. Luger was good for the time he was with us. It elevated him right from his beginning in the NWA but for pure talent I would say FLAIR, TULLY, ARN and BARRY WINDHAM were the ultimate combination. After that I would rather not comment.

K-W: Why did you leave the NWA?

JJ: After Crockett bought out Bill Watts' UWF, the whole thing started to crumble. There was a lull in business and the company was not prepared for it. Jim Crockett sold out to Turner and everything changed. It was just time for me to go.

K-W: Mike Ricard of wrestleinfo.com asks how was working for Vince different than working for the Crockett group?

JJ: Vince had specialists for everything. He had marketing experts, production experts, etc. When I worked in the NWA, I wore many hats. It was just like working in the old territory system where it was a one man show. The WWF had people assigned to every aspect of the business that knew that aspect to its fullest. It was run in a much more professional manner.

K-W: I know you go into a lot of detail about your time in the WWF and your final run with WCW in your book, WRESTLERS ARE LIKE SEAGULLS. So lets move to the end of WCW. What did you do after WCW was no more?

JJ: From 2001 to 2003 I worked as the CFO of Jerry Jarrett’s construction company.

K-W: Greg Edgmon asks why your run in NWA-TNA was so short.

JJ: Jerry Jarrett asked me to be a part of TNA and I made two on-camera appearances. I didn't get along with Vince Russo and just felt it was a place I didn't want to be.

K-W: What are you doing now?

JJ: I am living in Delaware and work for the Delaware department of corrections.

K-W: Just a few quick questions to wrap it up, in no particular order. Who was your favorite opponent to work with?

JJ: I enjoyed working with LEO BURKE very much and had a lot of fun working with DICK MURDOCH.

K-W: Ron Luders wonders who do you feel would have made a great NWA champ that, for whatever reason, never got a title run?

JJ: I have to go back to DICK MURDOCH. He was a great talent in the ring. I think the fact that he liked to clown around a little might have held him back as a potential champ. BARRY WINDHAM at his peak had all the tools needed to be a great champion as well.

K-W: What were your career high points?

JJ: Well as we already discussed working the Garden and my first trips to Japan and Australia were wonderful. Also the one match I had against El Santo in El Paso. My first time in the ring with GIANT BABA. While I was in Japan, I became a huge fan of Sumo. I really enjoyed watching a grand champion named WAJIMA. He made the transition to the pro ring and came to Charlotte to train with NELSON ROYAL. BABA came to town and they were taping a series of matches to air in Japan as part of his build up. One of the matches was a tag with GIANT BABA and WAJIMA in a squash match. I told Dusty it would be a dream come true for me to work with him so I wore long tights and a red, white and blue mask. They called me the AMERICAN EAGLE and I tagged with Gary Royal. We did the job but it was great. Funny thing is, I managed earlier in the evening and came back later under the mask and no one recognized me at all. Another high point was working a handicap match with STOMPER against ANDRE THE GIANT at Texas Stadium. Its always fun to watch the Cowboys home games and remember that I wrestled in that stadium.

K-W: Since you mention ANDRE, what was he like to work with?

JJ: If he liked you, he was as gentle as can be. For some reason he liked me. On the other hand if he didn't like someone, he would just sit on them or not sell for them or whatever he felt like. For some reason, he really didn't like the IRON SHEIK and whenever they were in the ring together he mad Khozro’s life miserable.

K-W: What was the best rib you ever were a part of or witnessed?

JJ: When I worked in Kansas City we used to do a lot of shows in high schools. You would always find kids locks hanging on their lockers unlocked. It was a common rib to put one of the locks on a guys suit case. They would have to go find bolt cutters to get it off. I never really got into pulling ribs because, well, you are always gonna get paid back, so I pretty much stayed out of it. Anyway one night I am sitting in the locker room and TERRY GARVIN comes in and leaves his bag. I just happen to notice this lock just hanging there and well I put it on his suit case and leave. Later when Terry finds it, he really doesn't sell it like I expected. We had ridden together and most of the ride home he was very quiet. Not like Terry at all. Finally he says, “I am trying to figure out who put the lock on my bag. I know it wasn't you since you don't pull ribs…” And he went through the whole roster trying to figure it out. About a week later, we are at another house show and the main event is a battle royal. So, everyone is in the ring and Terry takes a long length, maybe 10 feet of very heavy chain and strings it through the handles of everyone's suitcases and locks it to a radiator. Everyone's bag except mine. Since I couldn't have been the guy. Needles to say when the boys came back they were pissed. They wanted to get dressed and leave and they couldn't. I remember Terry yelling, “I don't know which one of you SOBS got me, but I know I got you.” Don't know if I ever admitted to it or not.

K-W: Ok, last question. Your book, WRESTLERS ARE LIKE SEAGULLS, where did the title come from?

JJ: Buy the book, the answer is in there.

For information on how to order your own copy of WRESTLERS ARE LIKE SEAGULLS, or just to find out more about JJ, check out his website jjdillon.com

** A big thank you to everybody who took part in this interview, especially Mr. Dillon, himself **